The creator-fan divide
Oct. 25th, 2013 01:01 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
This post is brought to you by several recent events, and the memory of similar occurrences of the past five or six years. Consider, for example, the recent kerfuffle in Supernatural fandom which involved enraged fans harassing actors and CW executives over a storyline with which said actors and executives had no control. Consider YA author John Green ill-advisedly wading into discussions fans of Veronica Roth's Divergent series were having about its ending. Consider actor Orlando Jones' thoughts on his show Sleepy Hollow and how its creators interact with the fandom. And finally, consider
seanan_mcguire's thoughts on being included in Twitter conversations with fans and reviewers of her books.
I'm having trouble working out where I stand on the creator-reviewer-fan interaction issue, and I think this is because of my own particular experiences. This got long, so bear with me.
I'm sure I've mentioned before that I started working as a newspaper book-reviewer when I was seventeen, and that I basically got my first article published because I wrote a snotty, entitled angry letter to the books editor of a major broadsheet accusing her of not having read The Amber Spyglass before reviewing it. (In other words, I behaved just as badly as the Supernatural fans.) Looking back, it was an appalling thing to have done, but it did get me into a line of work that I found extremely satisfying.
Before I got into online fandom (or writing reviews online), I had already been working as a professional reviewer for five years, and I continued reviewing in parallel with my online blogging. Reviewing by its nature involves lots of interaction with authors and publishers - I frequently had to contact them to request review copies of books, and I also interviewed several authors, either over the phone or in person. To date, those authors are: Kevin Crossley-Holland (email interview), Garth Nix (in person), Shaun Tan (over the phone), John Marsden (over the phone), Jeanette Winterson (in person), Gillian Rubinstein/'Lian Hearn' (over the phone), Sophie Masson (in person) and Anna Broinowski, the director of the documentary film Forbidden Lies (over the phone). I have also interviewed
sophiamcdougall for my blog; she follows me on Twitter and LJ and we are Facebook friends, so when I reviewed her book for the newspaper, I disclosed this.
I list all this to make the point that before I got into fandom, I was very comfortable interacting professionally with authors and discussing my interpretations of their work (with which, on occasion, they did not agree - I recall John Marsden shooting down a particular idea I had about his YA retelling of Hamlet. I stand by my interpretation and it didn't bother me that he disagreed with it). And since I've been in fandom/a review blogger, I've had extremely positive interactions with authors: it's how I got to know Sophia McDougall, Jo Walton has linked to my reviews of her work, Kate Elliott and Sarah Rees Brennan have done the same and participated in the discussion that such reviews generated, and I have participated in discussions on professional authors' or publishers' blogs without feeling unwelcome. Knowing that the authors were, in a sense, reading over my shoulder hasn't inhibited me in any way - in fact, it helped me to correct mistakes I had made (such as the time I wrote that Sophia McDougall's characters Delir and Lal were Christians, and she corrected me, saying they were Zoroastrians).
I think it helps, however, that the writers with whom I've interacted are neither hugely well-known (i.e. they're not at the J. K. Rowling level), nor are they unpleasant people. They are not going to go all Anne Rice on you all of a sudden if you 'interrogate the text from the wrong perspective'. In my experience, they've linked to my positive reviews and corrected me (as in the example of Sophia McDougall with the Zoroastrianism) when I made errors of fact, and stayed silent when I (to their mind) made errors of interpretation (that is, if I interpreted their writing against their intentions). Nor do they have vast armies of readers who organise themselves into opposing factions and attempt to recruit the authors into their battles of interpretation.
It's precisely because of these experiences (both as a newspaper reviewer and in my online interactions with authors) that I find it baffling, for example, when authors join in fan conversations about their works and are met with hysteria, accusations of 'inserting themselves into fannish spaces' and claims that their status as authors creates a power imbalance. I'm not talking about authors who go after negative Amazon reviewers or people who gave them only four stars on Goodreads. I'm talking more about instances when fans reblog authors' posts on Tumblr and then seem to get outraged that the authors respond. I like having discussions with authors, and if I tweet at them on Twitter, review their books on LJ or Wordpress or reblog them on Tumblr, it means I'm attempting to include them in the conversation if they want to be there.
At the same time, there are so many instances where authors have behaved like entitled brats when interacting with fans. This ranges from Anne Rice linking to negative reviews on her Facebook page and encouraging her fans to go after the reviewers to Ryan Murphy writing mockery of a subset of his fans who didn't like particular narrative choices into Glee. I remember a particularly irritating incident when Karen Miller (who writes Star Wars tie-in novels) went absolutely nuts at fans DARING to write fanfic of them in which 'her' characters were, shock-horror, gay. I'd never read any of her books, and was not in Star Wars fandom, but joined the masses, attempting to get her to see her own hypocrisy. (It didn't work.) Conversely, I have also seen fans act like entitled brats when particular stories didn't go their way (see: Harry Potter and Avatar: The Last Airbender shipwars, although the authors involved didn't help matters).
I feel like a good rule of thumb for creators might be to stay offline entirely unless they are comfortable reading criticism of their work. And I feel like a good rule of thumb for fans might be to refrain from posting material visible (or Googlable) to creators unless they're comfortable with the creators reading and potentially responding to their material. (And seriously, Teen Wolf fandom: don't engage the creators about Sterek unless you're prepared to hear any answer. Same goes for Dean/Castiel fans and Supernatural.) The vast majority of creators don't respond, in any case (Kate Elliott, Jo Walton, Sarah Rees Brennan and Sophia McDougall are the rare exceptions among the hundreds of creators whose work I've reviewed and talked about).
The internet is not going anywhere, and over the years I've been online, I've seen the fourth wall slowly dismantled. It's not going back up. Some creators are going to be good at interacting with fans, some are going to be bad, and some are going to be Ryan Murphy. Some fans are going to be good at interacting with creators, some are going to be bad at it, and some are going to Tweet porny fanfic at actors (seriously, please, please don't do that). My conclusion is that I have no absolute conclusion: I personally enjoy interacting with creators as a fan and reviewer, but can understand why some people don't. Ultimately, I think we are going to have to take each set of interactions on a case by case basis: some will be positive, some will be neutral, some will be awful due to the fans' actions and some will be awful due to the creators' actions. Interactions, like the internet itself, are only as good as the people involved in them.
What are your thoughts? I'm particularly keen to hear from those on both sides of the creator-fan divide.
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
I'm having trouble working out where I stand on the creator-reviewer-fan interaction issue, and I think this is because of my own particular experiences. This got long, so bear with me.
I'm sure I've mentioned before that I started working as a newspaper book-reviewer when I was seventeen, and that I basically got my first article published because I wrote a snotty, entitled angry letter to the books editor of a major broadsheet accusing her of not having read The Amber Spyglass before reviewing it. (In other words, I behaved just as badly as the Supernatural fans.) Looking back, it was an appalling thing to have done, but it did get me into a line of work that I found extremely satisfying.
Before I got into online fandom (or writing reviews online), I had already been working as a professional reviewer for five years, and I continued reviewing in parallel with my online blogging. Reviewing by its nature involves lots of interaction with authors and publishers - I frequently had to contact them to request review copies of books, and I also interviewed several authors, either over the phone or in person. To date, those authors are: Kevin Crossley-Holland (email interview), Garth Nix (in person), Shaun Tan (over the phone), John Marsden (over the phone), Jeanette Winterson (in person), Gillian Rubinstein/'Lian Hearn' (over the phone), Sophie Masson (in person) and Anna Broinowski, the director of the documentary film Forbidden Lies (over the phone). I have also interviewed
![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
I list all this to make the point that before I got into fandom, I was very comfortable interacting professionally with authors and discussing my interpretations of their work (with which, on occasion, they did not agree - I recall John Marsden shooting down a particular idea I had about his YA retelling of Hamlet. I stand by my interpretation and it didn't bother me that he disagreed with it). And since I've been in fandom/a review blogger, I've had extremely positive interactions with authors: it's how I got to know Sophia McDougall, Jo Walton has linked to my reviews of her work, Kate Elliott and Sarah Rees Brennan have done the same and participated in the discussion that such reviews generated, and I have participated in discussions on professional authors' or publishers' blogs without feeling unwelcome. Knowing that the authors were, in a sense, reading over my shoulder hasn't inhibited me in any way - in fact, it helped me to correct mistakes I had made (such as the time I wrote that Sophia McDougall's characters Delir and Lal were Christians, and she corrected me, saying they were Zoroastrians).
I think it helps, however, that the writers with whom I've interacted are neither hugely well-known (i.e. they're not at the J. K. Rowling level), nor are they unpleasant people. They are not going to go all Anne Rice on you all of a sudden if you 'interrogate the text from the wrong perspective'. In my experience, they've linked to my positive reviews and corrected me (as in the example of Sophia McDougall with the Zoroastrianism) when I made errors of fact, and stayed silent when I (to their mind) made errors of interpretation (that is, if I interpreted their writing against their intentions). Nor do they have vast armies of readers who organise themselves into opposing factions and attempt to recruit the authors into their battles of interpretation.
It's precisely because of these experiences (both as a newspaper reviewer and in my online interactions with authors) that I find it baffling, for example, when authors join in fan conversations about their works and are met with hysteria, accusations of 'inserting themselves into fannish spaces' and claims that their status as authors creates a power imbalance. I'm not talking about authors who go after negative Amazon reviewers or people who gave them only four stars on Goodreads. I'm talking more about instances when fans reblog authors' posts on Tumblr and then seem to get outraged that the authors respond. I like having discussions with authors, and if I tweet at them on Twitter, review their books on LJ or Wordpress or reblog them on Tumblr, it means I'm attempting to include them in the conversation if they want to be there.
At the same time, there are so many instances where authors have behaved like entitled brats when interacting with fans. This ranges from Anne Rice linking to negative reviews on her Facebook page and encouraging her fans to go after the reviewers to Ryan Murphy writing mockery of a subset of his fans who didn't like particular narrative choices into Glee. I remember a particularly irritating incident when Karen Miller (who writes Star Wars tie-in novels) went absolutely nuts at fans DARING to write fanfic of them in which 'her' characters were, shock-horror, gay. I'd never read any of her books, and was not in Star Wars fandom, but joined the masses, attempting to get her to see her own hypocrisy. (It didn't work.) Conversely, I have also seen fans act like entitled brats when particular stories didn't go their way (see: Harry Potter and Avatar: The Last Airbender shipwars, although the authors involved didn't help matters).
I feel like a good rule of thumb for creators might be to stay offline entirely unless they are comfortable reading criticism of their work. And I feel like a good rule of thumb for fans might be to refrain from posting material visible (or Googlable) to creators unless they're comfortable with the creators reading and potentially responding to their material. (And seriously, Teen Wolf fandom: don't engage the creators about Sterek unless you're prepared to hear any answer. Same goes for Dean/Castiel fans and Supernatural.) The vast majority of creators don't respond, in any case (Kate Elliott, Jo Walton, Sarah Rees Brennan and Sophia McDougall are the rare exceptions among the hundreds of creators whose work I've reviewed and talked about).
The internet is not going anywhere, and over the years I've been online, I've seen the fourth wall slowly dismantled. It's not going back up. Some creators are going to be good at interacting with fans, some are going to be bad, and some are going to be Ryan Murphy. Some fans are going to be good at interacting with creators, some are going to be bad at it, and some are going to Tweet porny fanfic at actors (seriously, please, please don't do that). My conclusion is that I have no absolute conclusion: I personally enjoy interacting with creators as a fan and reviewer, but can understand why some people don't. Ultimately, I think we are going to have to take each set of interactions on a case by case basis: some will be positive, some will be neutral, some will be awful due to the fans' actions and some will be awful due to the creators' actions. Interactions, like the internet itself, are only as good as the people involved in them.
What are your thoughts? I'm particularly keen to hear from those on both sides of the creator-fan divide.
no subject
Date: 2013-10-25 05:29 pm (UTC)2) Whining and throwing a (collective fandom) temper tantrum about things like your OTP not being made canon or whatever story line isn't agreeable to you that week, or dragging creators/actors into the FANDOM side of things (without them having brought it up/sought it out), should never ever be things that happen.
Definitely not. It actually strikes me as entitled to think that way. What does the creator owe you? And actors don't really get a say - sometimes even writers don't really get a say. People in the industry will tell you how they wanted to write something they believed the audience would actually want, but were told they had to change it or it wouldn't be produced. When I hear these stories, often the original product sounds way more appealing than what ends up on screen. Fanfic writers actually have more liberties than they realize, even if the creator doesn't like their ship. Even novel writers still have to compromise here and there. (And honestly? Art's become less restricted. People don't realize that either - we think of art as this free, liberating medium when really at one time you had to make sure nothing could be interpreted as treason against the King.)
no subject
Date: 2013-10-26 10:06 am (UTC)we think of art as this free, liberating medium when really at one time you had to make sure nothing could be interpreted as treason against the King.
That is very true, although in medieval Ireland, poets could threaten to compose a satire about rulers with whom they were dissatisfied, and the threat of this was apparently so grave that the rulers tended to pay the poets in order to prevent the satires being composed. (The idea was that the satire would shame the ruler.) It's not clear how much this reflects historical realities - it may just be a sort of literary trope, but it does seem to point to a certain ambiguity in terms of power relations between artists and rulers in medieval Ireland at least.
no subject
Date: 2013-10-26 11:55 am (UTC)Oh, totally, and I think there's shows especially that might have fared better had they realized what viewers actually wanted. Or movie studios, who don't seem to understand why nobody wants to go to the movies anymore... unless there it's the whole "people don't know what they want anyway" mentality.
no subject
Date: 2013-10-27 10:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-10-26 09:59 am (UTC)It never ceases to amaze me, for example, how thin-skinned some published professional authors can be. Anne Rice has sold millions of novels over a forty-year period, and yet she sends her fans to attack mildly negative Amazon reviewers. As a postgraduate student, I have some experience with academic publishing, and let me tell you that the reviewers in academic publishing (both peer-reviewers deciding if an article will be accepted for publication, and reviewers writing about other academics' books for journal articles) do not hold back. They are critical, and even sometimes downright nasty. I can't imagine how some of those creators would cope in academia!
Similarly, if you can only cope with the most recent storyline on SPN (not getting specific in case people are worried about spoilers) by getting drunk, sobbing hysterically, harassing SPN actors and CW executives on Twitter and writing endless angry Tumblr posts about it, it might be time to step away from the computer (and from SPN altogether).
no subject
Date: 2013-10-25 04:55 pm (UTC)I was in the HP fandom pretty much from start to finish, and I think the initial reason there was a lot of objection to new material was because there were large gaps between each book. We all formed our own ideas and kind of made the series our own. So when a new book came out, what we'd established was disrupted, and when JKR started doing more interviews and started writing things on her first "real" website, this disruption happened faster. Just recently JKR gave pretty much 75% of the backstory to a character who a LOT of fans wrote novel-length fics about. Had this been when fandom was still rolling, a lot of us would've been SOL if we wanted to stick even kind of close to canon. I'm honestly not sure we would've really been able to function the way we did had that interaction been the same at fandom's peak, let alone the way it's done now with other writers, because so many fanfics and discussions would've been debunked with one tweet or tumblr post. (Then again, we still got info here and there that toppled a few fics, and JKR did make some comments about certain ships, but even a lot of that was still towards the close of the series.)
The thing is that even though I think JK Rowling was very much aware of the way people responded to her, she never really acted butthurt or nasty, and I kind of liked that she acknowledged us, even if it was usually more about her younger and casual fans. (Truth be told, they were the majority anyway, whether we liked it or not.) I even sometimes felt that when she did reach out to her devout fans, it didn't always go over well because then the fan reporters, if you will, would spend 50% of the interview talking about their personal opinions and sizing them up to hers and stuff like that. As agitating as it was when other journalists would be all, "so the main character of the Harry Potter series is a boy named Harry Potter, right?" (no shit!), at least they were professional. Not to mention that fans always found a way to complain about how she acknowledged them. (Admittedly once or twice I could kind of see their points.)
Compare this with another fandom, Earth's Children, which is small (basically one website) and has had even larger gaps between books. There is still a lot of resentment towards the creator, and while in this case I actually think the points are a bit more valid (I hated the last book so much), it is true that we all had time to develop our own ideas on how the series should proceed and end. The characters became our own. As for how she responded to us... it was mostly through her son, and when the second to last book came out and no one liked it, he kind of stopped posting. I don't think she really likes that we write fanfic, but she allows it more so than some other authors, which I appreciate.
I'm not sure how I feel about authors interacting more, honestly. If I ever have one, though, I don't think I'll be too involved. But I wouldn't discourage fanfic at all, in fact I would encourage it, and... if people want to criticize my writing? So be it. Seriously. Nothing can be worse than the things people have said about Stephenie Meyer, and as much as I loathe Twilight, I think even some of her hatedom can go a bit too far. I don't see her complaining, and I kind of have to give her credit. (Unless I'm wrong and she has gotten butthurt, in which case, I take it back.)
no subject
Date: 2013-10-26 10:35 am (UTC)I think it was probably for the best that JKR wasn't very involved in fannish discussions until the end of the series, because it would have had an inhibiting effect on a lot of fannish creation and discussion. HP fandom was so huge, and so fragmented (I imagine there was enough going on that you could hang out in, say, Marauder-era slash fandom or Draco/Hermione fandom or whatever and not interact with anyone interested in other ships) that anything JKR said would've had an impact on one faction or another.
You are so right in saying that for popular works like HP in particular, casual fans are more likely to be the majority, it's just that everyone in online fandom only talks to other obsessive fans, creating an echo chamber and assuming they themselves are the majority. It's actually better to be in smaller fandoms in that regard because you harbour no illusions about your relative size or importance. (That's why my most enjoyable fannish experiences have been in small fandoms - a forum-based fandom for His Dark Materials, a forum-based fandom for the Australian fantasy series Obernewtyn, and a fandom which is literally about five people, based on LJ, for the Australian YA series Pagan Chronicles.) I've actually found that authors are more happy to get involved in those kinds of fandoms, because the fandoms are so small they don't have factions and ship-wars, and so the authors don't need to spend all their time interacting with fans fending off questions about shipping and fannish debates.
So that seems at odds with your experiences with Jean M. Auel and her son - and for what it's worth, I agree with you that the quality of the books has declined massively. The last one was almost unreadable. I think the problem is that I'm much more interested in interactions between the Clan and the Others and less so in the Ayla and Jondalar Soap Opera.
My opinion is that all creators should strive to emulate this particular attitude expressed by Philip Pullman. When asked how he felt about the filmmakers of The Golden Compass 'changing his book', he replied by pulling a copy of the book off his shelf and saying, 'My book hasn't been changed. It's right here, the same as ever.' That's an attitude that should extend to fanfiction and other types of fanwork. If fannish interpretation and criticism upsets you as an author that much, you can't have had much confidence in your creation to begin with.
no subject
Date: 2013-10-26 12:31 pm (UTC)You are so right in saying that for popular works like HP in particular, casual fans are more likely to be the majority, it's just that everyone in online fandom only talks to other obsessive fans, creating an echo chamber and assuming they themselves are the majority
I should also add that a lot of the casual fans were 6-10 year olds; meanwhile, that was exactly what we were defensive about. So that didn't really help. But I also think how much the casual fans still got into the books was overlooked - no, they didn't have every single character memorized, but I went to almost every single HP movie with someone who'd only read each book once, and she still got really into it. Why was her fan level (if you will) any less valid than ours?
You should really check out the site I'm talking about, because you'd probably find it quite interesting. It's ecfans.com - if you go, go to the forums, the main page is more of a placeholder, I think. (There's news, but there's also links to old geocities sites, which of course now don't exist.) I'm Azaelia there. :) /Shameless promotion
no subject
Date: 2013-10-27 10:12 am (UTC)I'll have a look. I love forum-based fandoms - that's how I got into fandom in the first place. I should say that I'm precisely the kind of casual fan of the EC books you've described - I've read each book maybe once or twice, don't have all the characters' names memorised etc, but found them (especially the first couple of books) really enjoyable. It's a shame the author is a bit thin-skinned when it comes to interacting with fans, though.
no subject
Date: 2013-10-26 07:58 am (UTC)I like the idea of creator-fan interactions, as long as it's done respectfully on both sides. It's been alarming to see the passion that some fan groups have, and the things that they are willing to do. I'm sure there are comparisons that could be made between fandom and religion. I'd hate to be the focus of negative attention of fandom. I would imagine that some authors even might get strongly worded "suggestions" from fans for what they would like to happen next - messages that are positive but somewhat demanding.
no subject
Date: 2013-10-26 10:17 am (UTC)I agree with you about the need for respect. My own position is that it's better for people on both sides to walk away from the conversation if they don't think they can handle legitimate criticism or things not going their way. Fans are allowed to vocally dislike a creator's narrative choices, and creators are allowed to say 'that is not a direction I'm interested in taking my story'. It sometimes doesn't feel like it, but even with the overwhelming nature of social media, it is possible to look away.
*While acknowledging that I'm in a position to be quite open about my life and background online, a luxury not available to everyone who wants to participate in fannish conversations on the internet.
no subject
Date: 2013-10-26 09:03 pm (UTC)1. It's her story, and she'll be allowed to add whatever she wants to it for ever and ever.
2. The books are published, she can't have control over everything anymore, she should move on.
3. A gay character, omg, she should burn in hell, this book is read by kids you know! (that was the idiots' opinion...)
Personally, I'm partial to the second option. I write a lot of fanfiction, and to me, the canon stops when the books do. JKR said Ginny is a Quidditch player when she graduates Hogwarts, and most of the time that's what I'll write, but if I need her to be something else, I won't consider that I'm going against the canon. Especially because people can have read all 7 books but not the interview in which she says Ginny is a Quidditch player, so nothing forces me to use that information. She's adding details to the fandom, but for me she's not adding them to the canon.
And I consider it my right to be a brat because A: TLA writers put Aang and Katara together when Zuko and Katara were SO CLEARLY meant to be together! :D
What's your name on Goodreads?
no subject
Date: 2013-10-27 10:25 am (UTC)As I said in my post, I'm quite happy to be corrected by authors when I get facts about their stories wrong (such as when I falsely labelled two of Sophia McDougall's characters Christians when they were Zoroastrians), and also happy to debate issues of interpretation (the instance with John Marsden involved me asking him if his YA retelling of Hamlet was meant to be saying that adults interpret teenage thought patterns and behaviour as being somewhat mad, but he said that his Hamlet was always meant to be mad, not just a misunderstood teenager. I still disagree with him, and the fact that he's the author and I'm not doesn't bother me in the slightest. I can see what I want to see in his book). What I hate is when authors react to differences of interpretation as if I've somehow destroyed their precious baby. Their story still exists. My interpretation does not threaten its existence.
And I consider it my right to be a brat because A: TLA writers put Aang and Katara together when Zuko and Katara were SO CLEARLY meant to be together!
Hahaha! I didn't watch A:TLA at the time it was airing, so I missed the whole shipwar. To be honest, I don't really think much about Aang and Katara, because they seemed too young to be thought about that way. And on the other hand, Mai was just so awesome, and I could see why she and Zuko were together. I'm an odd kind of A:TLA fan in that I started watching the series because I heard there was an angsty antihero character (i.e. Zuko), and then immediately realised I was much more interested in Sokka, who became one of my favourite characters of all time. My A:TLA OTP is actually an OT3 of Sokka, Suki and Toph, so I'm very much in the minority of A:TLA fandom!
I'm Dolorosa (https://www.goodreads.com/user/show/2234690-dolorosa) on Goodreads, but I very rarely use it.